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Thread: Wisconsin is not Egypt ... yet

  1. #11
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    Unions have had their place and time in American society, but they grew corrupt and greedy. We do have them to thank for our 2 days off a week among other important worker rights as we also have them to thank for the promotion of ineffective workers that should be retrained or fired. Unions are still needed, but not in their current form.

  2. #12
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    My problem with unions is like lando said, the got greedy and now protect the lazy. I'm sorry but if you lost your UAW protected job of installing door handles for $50/hr with eight weeks paid vacation, full health insurance, and a pension, I really don't feel sorry for you. The unions didn't follow the basic rules of supply and demand.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Threnn View Post
    You guys remind me of the People's Front of Judea...

    "All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

    Replace "romans" with "unions". (in case you didn't see that)

    Whether in a union or not, all of us generally benefit from the things organized labor has fought for in this country- shorter work days, paid vacations, overtime pay, etc.
    That was all nice but what good have either done lately? Unions aren't what they used to be. You use the argument of past accomplishments to perpetuate the facade of value. Today most are self serving pockets of waste and greed.

  4. #14
    Tiny Dancer Drewbie's Avatar
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    My issue with the unions are their entitlements like pensions and health care. I have to pay for my health care and fund my own retirement. So should everyone else.

  5. #15
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    Sure... Corporations don't have any lazy employees. Corporations aren't self-serving or greedy. Corruption is always weeded out of corporations...

    When someone says that unions are corrupt and greedy, etc, but doesn't say, "Yeah- I know corporations are equally/more corrupt, etc," there's an implication there that ONLY unions are the problem. Where is the "I favor busting corporate chops"? Personally, I think big business has done a great job of demonizing unions and spreading that into the public sentiment.

    And nuanced statements cut both ways... "UAW worker installing door-handles for 50/hr"... Okay... well the CEO of that company made how many millions? To do what? Wasn't he paying attention to supply and demand? Wasn't that HIS job? Shouldn't he have been lobbying congress to keep tariffs in place and strengthen the local economy rather than making it easier and more lucrative for companies to move their manufacturing to china?

    And most importantly- why is anyone expecting the door handle installer guy to look out for a company's supply and demand? His job is installing door handles. Managing supply and demand probably pays a lot more.

    Corporations perpetuate their own facade of value. I will agree on one thing. Corporations have way too much influence in government, and pretty much all other aspects of our lives.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drewbie View Post
    My issue with the unions are their entitlements like pensions and health care. I have to pay for my health care and fund my own retirement. So should everyone else.
    It doesn't take being in a union to have pensions and health care paid for. Before health care costs started going through the roof (by profit chasing "insurance" corporations, naturally), my private company covered ALL our health care premiums. Now it only pays for a portion. However, my umbrella company now offers a pension plan- and we're non-union.

    All it sounds like to me is that you have a serious case of sour grapes. "I have to pay for this, so you should too." Or maybe you should try to ask for better terms of employment. That is what they are, after all. Does your company match funds for retirement 401ks? Does your company provide daycare? Parking?

    Do you think all companies should be exactly equal in terms of the benefits you get? How about equal in terms of the wages they pay? After all, is it fair that one company pays it's employees more than another? Where does it all end, comrade?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Threnn View Post
    Do you think all companies should be exactly equal in terms of the benefits you get? How about equal in terms of the wages they pay? After all, is it fair that one company pays it's employees more than another? Where does it all end, comrade?
    You must conform, Comrade Threnn.

  8. #18
    Tiny Dancer Drewbie's Avatar
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    If your private company chooses to pay for your health care, pension, daycare, etc. fantastic. I'm very happy you found an employer who chooses to do that. I choose to contribute to your pension when I decide to buy your company's products or services and your company can decide to fire you if you don't meet their expectations with no fear of backlash or outcry. Not so much true with public sector unions. I pay for the pensions and benefits of employees that are protected and difficult to fire or even reprimand just because the union is there to strong arm their way to keeping shitty people around.

    Honestly, I'm as much in favor of union busting education unions as a way of getting rid of shitty teachers as I am in killing their public entitlements.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Threnn View Post
    And nuanced statements cut both ways... "UAW worker installing door-handles for 50/hr"... Okay... well the CEO of that company made how many millions? To do what? Wasn't he paying attention to supply and demand? Wasn't that HIS job? Shouldn't he have been lobbying congress to keep tariffs in place and strengthen the local economy rather than making it easier and more lucrative for companies to move their manufacturing to china?
    Actually, letting the Unions overprice their workers probably helped him sell moving the company to China to pay $0.50/day. And yes, corporations are corrupt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Threnn View Post
    And most importantly- why is anyone expecting the door handle installer guy to look out for a company's supply and demand?
    Not the individual, the union. At some point I think they should have realized what might happen and reined in their greed.

  10. #20
    Darth Small Macheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Threnn View Post
    Sure... Corporations don't have any lazy employees. Corporations aren't self-serving or greedy. Corruption is always weeded out of corporations...
    I sense a straw man argument coming up!

    Quote Originally Posted by Threnn View Post
    When someone says that unions are corrupt and greedy, etc, but doesn't say, "Yeah- I know corporations are equally/more corrupt, etc," there's an implication there that ONLY unions are the problem. Where is the "I favor busting corporate chops"?
    Yup, there it is. "If you think corporations are evil, then you must by the transitive properties of Threnn Logic believe that unions are good! "

    No, sorry. I don't like unions in their current state. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate what they used to do before they became bloated parodies of their former selves, and it doesn't mean I tolerate corporate waste or appreciate being governed by corporate interests either.

    It also doesn't mean I support Al-Qaeda, just to head your next nonsensical argument off at the pass.

    This thread isn't about CEOs. If you want to start that thread, be my guest, but it's a completely separate thing to bitch about. Unions and corporations oppose one another, but so did Hitler and Stalin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Threnn View Post
    And most importantly- why is anyone expecting the door handle installer guy to look out for a company's supply and demand? His job is installing door handles. Managing supply and demand probably pays a lot more.
    He doesn't have to "manage" supply and demand, but he should certainly be subject to it. If nobody's buying door handles, why should car companies be forced to allow him to continue making door handles? Well, because they can't fire him, and they can't force him to learn a new job. I guess we're stuck with door handles.

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